Comments worth a post but not a thread of their own

Chopchop43 · January 13

JayJay said:
HRA decision for starters, fundamentally a strong supporter of NR and never ever had an 80 start maiden but there you go.

please point out where I mentioned anything about you ?

savethegame · January 13

GETTHECHANGE, good to see you back posting with your knowledge, straight away you have injected some speed back in the contest.

Had a flashback with handicapping remember there was some carry on over horse called either Thor's Hope or Thor Rise --Nickey Sweetman it had won quite a few in Victoria as two-year-old a lot trainers didn't start two-year olds some waited until even they were four,

Two year-olds started on 2.38. not sure now if you could go past 2.30 assessment as two-yearly then return as maiden three-year-old 2.30?. Then as a maiden four-year old 2.28,was your starting mark outside, age races triple crowns etc you had to win three in country before eligibility for city racing Qualifying Stakes 2.21 so on.

He had lot of top class horses, Sweetman trying to remember one that was rated very high was on his way to bigger things. He succumbed to septicemia

getthechanges · January 13

until Jan 1 HRA.NR had remained steadfast despite industry pressure - i believe they had it right and now they have it wrong - I listened to Toby mckinnon and pretty much eveything he said suggested 3yos were dominating

the reasons for raising the points matrix by 1 thought were correct ie too many dropping back and too many under horses under 50 so te scale was raised then out of nowhere 3yos ar being too harshly treated so they will get concessions and the 4yo+ cop it

using Pinjaarra $9000 races as an example

before the changes 3yo and 4yo+ horses winning received 4 points

now 4yos take 5 points

now 3yos take 50% of 5 points rounded down in 3yo races which is 2 points - 4yo+ are up 1 and 3yo are down 2 which is a big change

2yos receive 50% discount which I have no issue with

but

3yo dominance was identified back in the late 1980s

warrenrobinson · January 14

,This is a question for all, since we removed the 2.28 model which handicap system has increased turnover and participation in our industry?.

JayJay · January 14

Warning, warning......advanced gas lighters about to enter the building. The answer is undeniably evident. The 2.28 model was the last time we had a system that would qualify as a true, 100% handicapping system, free of drop backs, freekicks and handouts. And since then, the decline has been constant and accellerating at an increasing rate as proven by facts and figures.

warrenrobinson · January 14

getthechanges said:
until Jan 1 HRA.NR had remained steadfast despite industry pressure - i believe they had it right and now they have it wrong - I listened to Toby mckinnon and pretty much eveything he said suggested 3yos were dominating
the reasons for raising the points matrix by 1 thought were correct ie too many dropping back and too many under horses under 50 so te scale was raised then out of nowhere 3yos ar being too harshly treated so they will get concessions and the 4yo+ cop it
using Pinjaarra $9000 races as an example
before the changes 3yo and 4yo+ horses winning received 4 points
now 4yos take 5 points
now 3yos take 50% of 5 points rounded down in 3yo races which is 2 points - 4yo+ are up 1 and 3yo are down 2 which is a big change

2yos receive 50% discount which I have no issue with
but
3yo dominance was identified back in the late 1980s

No Handicap No Turnover No Industry.

Arapaho · January 14

savethegame said:

TimmyBee said:

Chopchop43 said:

watchingu said:
Pinjarra do a good day out the few times ive been

90% of the crowd are pensioners and the retired which is great gives them a good day out, but when your talking about patrons that spend a bit of money over the bar and the on course betting its not the sort of crowd thats privy to that kind of spending

never heard a truer word spoken
TRUE Be interested to know that 259 trainers left the percentage over 65 would be,

Just did a quick tally of trainers in the last fortnight who started a horse.

In that group 63 trainers are coming down the straight with 1 lap to go and are over 65 and off that group 38 of them have already received the bell and are over 70.

warrenrobinson · January 14

getthechanges said:
until Jan 1 HRA.NR had remained steadfast despite industry pressure - i believe they had it right and now they have it wrong - I listened to Toby mckinnon and pretty much eveything he said suggested 3yos were dominating
the reasons for raising the points matrix by 1 thought were correct ie too many dropping back and too many under horses under 50 so te scale was raised then out of nowhere 3yos ar being too harshly treated so they will get concessions and the 4yo+ cop it
using Pinjaarra $9000 races as an example
before the changes 3yo and 4yo+ horses winning received 4 points
now 4yos take 5 points
now 3yos take 50% of 5 points rounded down in 3yo races which is 2 points - 4yo+ are up 1 and 3yo are down 2 which is a big change

2yos receive 50% discount which I have no issue with
but
3yo dominance was identified back in the late 1980s

When did 3yos who won the Derby stop incurring a metro aged penalty and what was the reasoning behind it.

JayJay · January 14

Arapaho said:

savethegame said:
TRUE Be interested to know that 259 trainers left the percentage over 65 would be,
Just did a quick tally of trainers in the last fortnight who started a horse.
In that group 63 trainers are coming down the straight with 1 lap to go and are over 65 and off that group 38 of them have already received the bell and are over 70.

Please don't do this exercise for owners....some of us received the bell years ago. But I am going deaf and didn't hear it.....or I forgot that I heard it. :|

JayJay · January 14

The metro penalty for winning the Derby disappeared before 2013. I think the handicapper of the day introduced the concession but when it was I cannot recall.

Arapaho · January 14

JayJay said:

Arapaho said:

savethegame said:
TRUE Be interested to know that 259 trainers left the percentage over 65 would be,
Just did a quick tally of trainers in the last fortnight who started a horse.
In that group 63 trainers are coming down the straight with 1 lap to go and are over 65 and off that group 38 of them have already received the bell and are over 70.
Please don't do this exercise for owners....some of us received the bell years ago. But I am going deaf and didn't hear it.....or I forgot that I heard it. :|

Just got hope its a big track with a very long straight.

JayJay · January 14

Bell ringer miscounted the laps hopefully..... and a long straight.

savethegame · January 14

If you didn't get the three score and ten nod,stick to Collie when your all out another corner will appear and lift again.

JayJay · January 14

Saab, the Derby winner in 1997, had his first start as a 4 year old in 1998 in an M1, so he still incurred the "penalty" as soft as it was.

And I say "soft" with the greatest of respect for the horse. But in his 2 and 3 year old season, he won 3 "ordinary" two year old races PLUS the $100k Classic Final and the 50k Golden Slipper....and as a 3 year old, a $9k metro race, a $3250 C4, the $20k Caduceus Club, the $30k Western Gateway and the $90k Derby.

And someone thought it was a good idea to change the rule some time after that which would have enabled him to have his first start as a CO..... after having won 11 juvenile races and $228,026 in earnings.

Even with the so called "penalty" to start his 4 year old season as an M1, that wasn't handicapping, it was nest feathering.

And then to add insult to injury, they changed the system to allow derby winners to start life as a CO 4 year old maiden?? Indefensible.

getthechanges · January 14

from memory a horse could win four metro 3yo races with the fifth win advancing the horse to a 2:21 (M1) metro mark

horses could also win one metro 4yo race and remain a Qualifying stakes (M0) horse

Markovina · January 14

The best handicapping system in my opinion rewards potential owners big time , if they put their hands deeply into their pockets and buy Aust Bred yearlings

Anyone who has bought them - and i have knows how risky a financial route that is - like you pay for the yearling , have the cost of being broken in ,and the training fees for maybe a couple of preps , then maybe be advised it needs to be gelded then another prep and your finally told its not good enough

Thats why alot go down the far safer $ route of buying NZ Imports . However if you have done Micro and Macro economics , there is a principle called the Multiplier effect , and that is in full swing when you buy yearlings

When you buy yearlings , how many dud ones do you buy ( total expensive financial write off financially ) compared to ones who make the grade - thus you should be allowed to win as many as you like as a 2 year old and a 3 year old including features like Nikalong Shadow 10 wins as a 2 yr old and 10 as a 3 yr old then as a 4 yr old starts as a C0 - Ive got no problem with that

These ones like Chariots/ Jay Jay , sitting on their great white horse saying its outrageous that Derby winners start as a C0 as a 4 yr old , then go and buy multiple 30k plus yearlings every year , and you will quickly agree that when you finally fluke a good one , then for the huge $ risk involved i should be able to win as many 2 and 3 yr old races as i like and then start as a C0 in the 4 yr old season

The much heralded NR system , which i think is like the AFL Draft , just too much nonsense in it - like last year over East , say at Bathurst , where a 2 yr old can have its 1st start in an open age maiden , and beat them by 40 metres , is that a good system ? - well it is not a system at all

warrenrobinson · January 14

getthechanges said:
from memory a horse could win four metro 3yo races with the fifth win advancing the horse to a 2:21 (M1) metro mark
horses could also win one metro 4yo race and remain a Qualifying stakes (M0) horse

That's not handicapping. You didn't answer my question re Derby.

getthechanges · January 14

thats because I dont know the answer

Chopchop43 · January 14

Was at trials today, still haven't heard a participant say anything positive about the nr system, doesnt seem like too many of Cam Browns industry saving ideas have hit the target thus far

JayJay · January 14

Field sizes at "Turnover Central" up, turnover up, SP of favourites up, average winning price up number of odds on favourites down....all coming off a very very low base achieved under the RBD heavy HWOE/Conditioned stakes racing. Still nowhere near getting even close to paying our way but undeniable improvement.

JayJay · January 14

In latest Racing news, star 3 year old Machine Gun Gracie, winner of the Natasha, the Oaks and The Derby, has been transferred to Ben, Will and JD Hayes in Victoria.

They will be starting her campaign in a maiden at Benalla.

Chopchop43 · January 14

JayJay said:
Field sizes at "Turnover Central" up, turnover up, SP of favourites up, average winning price up number of odds on favourites down....all coming off a very very low base achieved under the RBD heavy HWOE/Conditioned stakes racing. Still nowhere near getting even close to paying our way but undeniable improvement.

So a few things here. Yes all those things mentioned are correct, doesnt mean participants like they NR system. Senior drivers hate it , alot of their drives have disappeared, given to junior drivers as there is just too much of an advantage putting a junior driver on , they've gone from 1 extreme to the other in that regard. Haven't met a trainer whos spoken positive about it either , whether over here or over east . For all the supposed positives this system has given us I still go back to the fact there has been zero statistical evidence given to us from RWWA that this system has been a game changer , and heres the thing RWWA are big on giving themselves a public pat on the back when their ideas and initiatives work ,which leads one to believe has NR actually improved the most important metric for this industry going forward , turnover. If turnover hasnt improved and the majority of participants loathe the NR system then its still a failure regardless of all the positives you've stated.

warrenrobinson · January 14

Chopchop43 said:

JayJay said:
Field sizes at "Turnover Central" up, turnover up, SP of favourites up, average winning price up number of odds on favourites down....all coming off a very very low base achieved under the RBD heavy HWOE/Conditioned stakes racing. Still nowhere near getting even close to paying our way but undeniable improvement.

So a few things here. Yes all those things mentioned are correct, doesnt mean participants like they NR system. Senior drivers hate it , alot of their drives have disappeared, given to junior drivers as there is just too much of an advantage putting a junior driver on , they've gone from 1 extreme to the other in that regard. Haven't met a trainer whos spoken positive about it either , whether over here or over east . For all the supposed positives this system has given us I still go back to the fact there has been zero statistical evidence given to us from RWWA that this system has been a game changer , and heres the thing RWWA are big on giving themselves a public pat on the back when their ideas and initiatives work ,which leads one to believe has NR actually improved the most important metric for this industry going forward , turnover. If turnover hasnt improved and the majority of participants loathe the NR system then its still a failure regardless of all the positives you've stated.

No Handicap No Turnover No Industry.

Chopchop43 · January 14

warrenrobinson said:

Chopchop43 said:

JayJay said:
Field sizes at "Turnover Central" up, turnover up, SP of favourites up, average winning price up number of odds on favourites down....all coming off a very very low base achieved under the RBD heavy HWOE/Conditioned stakes racing. Still nowhere near getting even close to paying our way but undeniable improvement.

So a few things here. Yes all those things mentioned are correct, doesnt mean participants like they NR system. Senior drivers hate it , alot of their drives have disappeared, given to junior drivers as there is just too much of an advantage putting a junior driver on , they've gone from 1 extreme to the other in that regard. Haven't met a trainer whos spoken positive about it either , whether over here or over east . For all the supposed positives this system has given us I still go back to the fact there has been zero statistical evidence given to us from RWWA that this system has been a game changer , and heres the thing RWWA are big on giving themselves a public pat on the back when their ideas and initiatives work ,which leads one to believe has NR actually improved the most important metric for this industry going forward , turnover. If turnover hasnt improved and the majority of participants loathe the NR system then its still a failure regardless of all the positives you've stated.
No Handicap No Turnover No Industry.

so thoughts on this 'handicapping' system ??

warrenrobinson · January 14

Chopchop43 said:

warrenrobinson said:

Chopchop43 said:

JayJay said:
Field sizes at "Turnover Central" up, turnover up, SP of favourites up, average winning price up number of odds on favourites down....all coming off a very very low base achieved under the RBD heavy HWOE/Conditioned stakes racing. Still nowhere near getting even close to paying our way but undeniable improvement.

So a few things here. Yes all those things mentioned are correct, doesnt mean participants like they NR system. Senior drivers hate it , alot of their drives have disappeared, given to junior drivers as there is just too much of an advantage putting a junior driver on , they've gone from 1 extreme to the other in that regard. Haven't met a trainer whos spoken positive about it either , whether over here or over east . For all the supposed positives this system has given us I still go back to the fact there has been zero statistical evidence given to us from RWWA that this system has been a game changer , and heres the thing RWWA are big on giving themselves a public pat on the back when their ideas and initiatives work ,which leads one to believe has NR actually improved the most important metric for this industry going forward , turnover. If turnover hasnt improved and the majority of participants loathe the NR system then its still a failure regardless of all the positives you've stated.
No Handicap No Turnover No Industry.

so thoughts on this 'handicapping' system ??

Certainly better than the corrupted HWOE but not the answer. Any system that allows horses to drop back will never take our industry forward.

JayJay · January 14

The geckos will keep chipping away, exerting their influence and power, turning what we now have around to their advantage just as they did with M/C/R and HWOE, maintaining status quo (advantage them), sidelining the intended purpose of RWWA to actually run the industry for the benefit of all participants.

Just like it was before 2003. Can't go upsetting the entitled ruling class down at John's Fun Palace. Some down there consider RWWA a temporary aberration, best done away with.

Chopchop43 · January 15

warrenrobinson said:

Chopchop43 said:

warrenrobinson said:

Chopchop43 said:

JayJay said:
Field sizes at "Turnover Central" up, turnover up, SP of favourites up, average winning price up number of odds on favourites down....all coming off a very very low base achieved under the RBD heavy HWOE/Conditioned stakes racing. Still nowhere near getting even close to paying our way but undeniable improvement.

So a few things here. Yes all those things mentioned are correct, doesnt mean participants like they NR system. Senior drivers hate it , alot of their drives have disappeared, given to junior drivers as there is just too much of an advantage putting a junior driver on , they've gone from 1 extreme to the other in that regard. Haven't met a trainer whos spoken positive about it either , whether over here or over east . For all the supposed positives this system has given us I still go back to the fact there has been zero statistical evidence given to us from RWWA that this system has been a game changer , and heres the thing RWWA are big on giving themselves a public pat on the back when their ideas and initiatives work ,which leads one to believe has NR actually improved the most important metric for this industry going forward , turnover. If turnover hasnt improved and the majority of participants loathe the NR system then its still a failure regardless of all the positives you've stated.
No Handicap No Turnover No Industry.

so thoughts on this 'handicapping' system ??
Certainly better than the corrupted HWOE but not the answer. Any system that allows horses to drop back will never take our industry forward.

anything would of been better than hwoe system, again I didnt see the point of leaving the mcr system for either of these.

warrenrobinson · January 15

getthechanges said:
from memory a horse could win four metro 3yo races with the fifth win advancing the horse to a 2:21 (M1) metro mark
horses could also win one metro 4yo race and remain a Qualifying stakes (M0) horse

Chariots may know the answer as he was Harness Director around that time.

JayJay · January 15

He may still be the Director...The RWWA Website doesn't list a Harness Director after the retirement of Bob Fowler last July.

Rumours suggest in may be Chariots Jnr who got the gig but how would you know. No one even seems to know the process as to how a new Director is appointed???

warrenrobinson · January 15

I'm not sure where you source this information from JJ and you always deal in facts but surely this is not correct. Finally you may be wrong but then again the entitled are running the industry.

G'day Punter!

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