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5 of the last 6 winners at GP long odds on

Harness & Greyhounds
licklick    367 posts
Harness & Greyhounds
How can we survive at this rate? The handicapping MUST change. Back in the day if a horse started at 3/1 on ($1.33) it was like “wow - this must be good! 


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Vincent_vega, warrenrobinson, thefalcon likes this post.

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  • Vincent_vegaVincent_vega    674 posts
    Not that i was betting but i took a snoop at the fields last night after race 3 seeing if there would be any interest in viewing. Saw the prices and was like this will be a procession, watched Seinfeld reruns instead

    warrenrobinson likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,624 posts
    edited April 2024
    lick said:

    How can we survive at this rate? The handicapping MUST change. Back in the day if a horse started at 3/1 on ($1.33) it was like “wow - this must be good! 





    The simple answer is that it can't survive. It is losing money hand over fist, it is heavily subsidised by the revenue generated from the other codes, Gloucester Park in spite of sitting on top of the turnover tree (as it should with its time slot, "name", stake money, quality of horse, location etc) loses more money than all the other tracks put together....11 million of the 15 million lost in FY 23....and the solution is to reduce the industry to junk status by closing down your regional base and eliminating what is left of the Industry?? Closing down Williams of Collie or whatever is going to return the Industry to profit? Hold my beer and pass the cooking sherry.

    The problem is crystal clear....the product is broken, perhaps beyond redemption, punters don't bet on the product, they have abandoned the industry, harness's share of overall turnover is less than 11% and falling, a few big power brokers love the $1.04 favourite drawing well, jumping to the front and leading all the way on an absurdly outdated track, which is about to have $24.7 million of Industry funds spent on it to produce the same thing, to be played out in front of no patrons, they love playing the all ups, they love betting on some pre-made super star coming from wherever and bashing up the opposition....but your bred and butter punter goes stuff that .....they have jumped ship....but let's close down some pesky country tracks, get rid of the hobbyist and the hobby breeder, lets keep tinkering with band aid solutions to handicapping and programming and the failed NBM and let's keep the HRCG fiddling while Rome burns.

    There are some smoke and mirror artists that will tell you that 5 of the last 6 winners at GP is a great thing, great racing, best of the year.....and what's more I think they are serious? Seriously.

    warrenrobinson, thefalcon likes this post.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    471 posts
    5 out of the 10 race card at Albion Park last night were extremely short priced aswell I mean don't think gp is an orphan when it comes to short priced favourites
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  • JayJayJayJay    8,624 posts
    Yep, there probably was, and probably at all tracks Australia wide, it is endemic, so lets just keep doing what we are doing, nothing to see, businesses that run at a return of less than 40 cents in the dollar just keep going forever and ever.
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  • warrenrobinsonwarrenrobinson    642 posts
    No Handicap No Turnover No Future and RWA want to blame the industry.
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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    471 posts
    No something has to change I'll agree with you on that, I'm just not prepared to lay the blame on one track, when we have several 850m or less size tracks that offer very similar results,too me I think it's more of a poor reflection on the disaster of a handicapping system we have in place

    Gilgamesh likes this post.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    471 posts
    Narrogin last night 4 out of the 8 winners in the red , is the industry dying because of gp or because of the handicapping situation???
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  • JayJayJayJay    8,624 posts
    Your speaking to the converted here Chop Chop. Have you any idea how long I have been railing against the handicap system and the hopeless programming, how many words I have typed, how many posts I have logged, how many submissions I have made or emails exchanged, how many meetings I have attended, how many tanks of diesel I have burned up, going back for nearly 6 years?? Don't you dare lecture me on the handicapping system or the other aspects associated with it..

    It's been stated on here so many times that it is becoming tedious....The Industry is failing because the product is rejected by punters, it is no good, overall share of turnover is less than 11%, the punters have abandoned ship. The Industry is dying because it is losing money hand over fist and nowhere does it lose more money than at Gloucester Park, here are the facts yet again, for the umpteenth time.....in FY 2023, of the 15 million the Industry was down the tube, 11 million of it was lost at GP, unquestionably the home of the "$1.04 favourite leads and wins" and no one challenges it, producing snoozefest racing week after week. Of course there are short priced favourites leading and winning at all tracks, obviously that is the case everywhere but it is accentuated at GP with the higher quality horses drawn to lead on a ridiculously outdated major metropolitan track of 800m.

    If we are true to ourselves as an Industry, the Nullabor, like the Mount Eden Mile, should be run at Pinjarra. A $1.25 million dollar race where half or more of the field will be out of business before the green light goes on and will end up with a "Held Up" notation in the final results? 

    The slot holders should demand it be run on the 1000m track where there is a far better chance of a "race", as was the case in the Mount Eden.

    LightningJake likes this post.

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  • Rocket_ReignRocket_Reign    931 posts
    You’re a god amongst men JJ, when are they going to realise only you and Warren can save the industry

    Bushbookie, TimmyBee, thefalcon likes this post.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    471 posts
    JayJay said:

    Your speaking to the converted here Chop Chop. Have you any idea how long I have been railing against the handicap system and the hopeless programming, how many words I have typed, how many posts I have logged, how many submissions I have made or emails exchanged, how many meetings I have attended, how many tanks of diesel I have burned up, going back for nearly 6 years?? Don't you dare lecture me on the handicapping system or the other aspects associated with it..

    It's been stated on here so many times that it is becoming tedious....The Industry is failing because the product is rejected by punters, it is no good, overall share of turnover is less than 11%, the punters have abandoned ship. The Industry is dying because it is losing money hand over fist and nowhere does it lose more money than at Gloucester Park, here are the facts yet again, for the umpteenth time.....in FY 2023, of the 15 million the Industry was down the tube, 11 million of it was lost at GP, unquestionably the home of the "$1.04 favourite leads and wins" and no one challenges it, producing snoozefest racing week after week. Of course there are short priced favourites leading and winning at all tracks, obviously that is the case everywhere but it is accentuated at GP with the higher quality horses drawn to lead on a ridiculously outdated major metropolitan track of 800m.

    If we are true to ourselves as an Industry, the Nullabor, like the Mount Eden Mile, should be run at Pinjarra. A $1.25 million dollar race where half or more of the field will be out of business before the green light goes on and will end up with a "Held Up" notation in the final results? 

    The slot holders should demand it be run on the 1000m track where there is a far better chance of a "race", as was the case in the Mount Eden.

    at what stage did I lecture you on anything jayjay?? I merely pointed out the obvious and shared my opinion , people want to sit here and lay the blame on gp as a giant problem in this industry I'm just saying that I think the problem goes beyond one particular track, attacking gp continuously especially in regards to short proce favourites is just low hanging fruit, especially when you consider that on the regular most meeting are providing a large number of winning favourites in the red

    TimmyBee likes this post.

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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    471 posts
    4 out of 9 winners at Albion Park for there metro stakes meeting were in the red, again is it a track thing or a handicapping thing because I can guarantee the amount of short priced favourites isn't just a gp only issue, the fact of the matter is alot of people are still happy to race at gp and its not going anywhere for the time being, you can point out all the financial facts and figures it's our metro meeting track for the time being so why not push to solve the actual problem that plagues the industry which is this handicapping system rather than go after one track in particular

    Chariotsonfire, TimmyBee likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,624 posts

    The "low hanging fruit" adorning the trellises of a hopelessly out of date 800m Major Metropolitan track (and those pesky RWWA financial facts and figures), and which is about to vacuum up $24.7 million of Industry Funds for no change in track size, and which is costing the industry millions and millions of dollars per annum year in year out, an industry heavily subsidised by the other two codes to maintain unsustainable stakes at over twice what they should be, and which needs country front races to produce something approximating a subscribed 10 race metro card are nothing to worry about? Just shut down some more country tracks to prop up a failing venue, eliminate more industry participants, tinker with an admittedly broken handicapping system and prosperity will return and punters will flock back to the product and the industry will return to full health? Magic. Pass the cooking sherry Dulcie.
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  • sonnysonny    1,555 posts
    Hi Rocket, I think you are much better than your last post..
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  • warrenrobinsonwarrenrobinson    642 posts
    Hallelujah Rocket i new you'd come our way, may the Lord be with you.

    LightningJake likes this post.

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  • GilgameshGilgamesh    5,009 posts
    I'm strongly in the corner its the lack of handicapping that causes the biggest issue but something that stands out about GP is hiw few winners come from the moving line (outside of breeze winners) even when races look perfectly set up for horses in those positions.

    It just seems almost impossible to come wide and win.

    AbbysAce likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,624 posts
    edited April 2024
    Just the one favourite at Pinjarra today from 9 tries, at a luxurious $1.60. The 1000m track raced very fairly today, only a couple of leaders won.
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  • TimmyBeeTimmyBee    45 posts
    JayJay said:

    Just the one favourite at Pinjarra today from 9 tries, at a luxurious $1.60. The 1000m track raced very fairly today, only a couple of leaders won.


    Genuine question here. What’s better, a bigger track with flatter bends or a smaller track with more cambered bends?
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  • JayJayJayJay    8,624 posts
    No simple answer I think. The 7 degrees  of camber at GP was a committee decision going against the recommended 14 degrees from maybe when Edgelow engineering were engaged? 

    From memory, and will stand corrected, two of the committee  voted in favour, Kersley and Grubisa. It is now recognised that the decision not to increase camber is a big part of the problem and one the planned "redevelopment" will address. I think that is the situation.

    But that is only part of the best formula, radius of the bends is from what I have read, vital. Bunbury is 960m, only 40 metres shorter than Pinjarra (47m actually) but it has smaller radius bends. I am going off memory here because I can't find the exact measurements but both Bunbury and Pinjarra have bend radius in the low to mid 80 degrees and Pinjarra in the 90's. GP straight is only 143m, Pinjarra well over 210m and Bunbury somewhere in between (200m?) Anecdotally, I reckon Pinjarra is superior to Bunbury.

    I am no engineer, I am sure someone has the exact measurements but I think camber, bend radius and straight length are major components of a fair track. Pinjarra ticks all those boxes, GP doesn't and I'm afraid the evolution of the standardbred has surpassed the track dimensions.

    That's as genuine an answer as I can provide, God has spoken TimmyBlee, I'll standby for 40 years of personal denigration and ageist insults.

    TimmyBee, LightningJake likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,624 posts
    Correction...."both Bunbury and Gloucester Park have bend radius in the low to mid 80 degrees".....
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  • Chopchop43Chopchop43    471 posts
    JayJay said:


    The "low hanging fruit" adorning the trellises of a hopelessly out of date 800m Major Metropolitan track (and those pesky RWWA financial facts and figures), and which is about to vacuum up $24.7 million of Industry Funds for no change in track size, and which is costing the industry millions and millions of dollars per annum year in year out, an industry heavily subsidised by the other two codes to maintain unsustainable stakes at over twice what they should be, and which needs country front races to produce something approximating a subscribed 10 race metro card are nothing to worry about? Just shut down some more country tracks to prop up a failing venue, eliminate more industry participants, tinker with an admittedly broken handicapping system and prosperity will return and punters will flock back to the product and the industry will return to full health? Magic. Pass the cooking sherry Dulcie.

    well maybe do away with all tracks smaller than 850 I agree those sort of tracks are outdated and in some cases unsafe with the times horses are running at the moment, and those times are only going to get quicker. As you pointed out with pinjarras meeting yesterday maybe we need 1000m tracks to even the playing field and create a better product. Racing on 800m tracks with tight corners is always going to create a leader bias situation it probably just gets highlighted more in the metro meetings when the better horses draw to lead (which shouldn't happen if we actually had a semi decent handicapping system) and start in the red, but I can near on guarantee out in the country on similar size tracks with no sprint lane your going to end up with similar results , for example Narrogin Saturday.
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  • warrenrobinsonwarrenrobinson    642 posts
    No Handicap No Turnover No Future. Pretty simple answer God help us please.
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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    3,348 posts
    Chopchop43 said:

    JayJay said:


    The "low hanging fruit" adorning the trellises of a hopelessly out of date 800m Major Metropolitan track (and those pesky RWWA financial facts and figures), and which is about to vacuum up $24.7 million of Industry Funds for no change in track size, and which is costing the industry millions and millions of dollars per annum year in year out, an industry heavily subsidised by the other two codes to maintain unsustainable stakes at over twice what they should be, and which needs country front races to produce something approximating a subscribed 10 race metro card are nothing to worry about? Just shut down some more country tracks to prop up a failing venue, eliminate more industry participants, tinker with an admittedly broken handicapping system and prosperity will return and punters will flock back to the product and the industry will return to full health? Magic. Pass the cooking sherry Dulcie.

    well maybe do away with all tracks smaller than 850 I agree those sort of tracks are outdated and in some cases unsafe with the times horses are running at the moment, and those times are only going to get quicker. As you pointed out with pinjarras meeting yesterday maybe we need 1000m tracks to even the playing field and create a better product. Racing on 800m tracks with tight corners is always going to create a leader bias situation it probably just gets highlighted more in the metro meetings when the better horses draw to lead (which shouldn't happen if we actually had a semi decent handicapping system) and start in the red, but I can near on guarantee out in the country on similar size tracks with no sprint lane your going to end up with similar results , for example Narrogin Saturday.
    You make some decent and fair points re track sizes

    And extending on that theme - someone who bets Aust wide re Trots like me i think there are a hell of alot of rattshit Trotting tracks both big and small in Aust 

    In fact i think you can count on 1 single hand the number of top class totally fair Trotting tracks in Aust 

    I think Kilmore is the best track in Aust - a big track with sensational cambering , its got a sprint lane but not a squibbs lane - its their to use but its not going to get you the win - you can run 6th or 7th using the sprint lane at Kilmore . You contrast that to Bathurst and Wagga both relatively new and big  tracks and i hate both of them - very difficult to make ground wide ( probably because the cambering is no good ) and the sprint lane is a massive advantage . And at Bathurst in particular , they drive them exactly like GP ,in alot of races , dont  want to be in the running line , i will go 3 or 4  back the pegs and take my chances - its become a peg dominated shocker 

    I think Launceston is an excellent track - big track excellent cambering , it hasnt got a sprint lane - very few horses get held up though , because its got a big roomy straight , I think Hamilton is also another 1st class track 

    So if your going to build a bigger track , you have to get it right , and in my opinion there are plenty of examples where they have botched it

    VLandys wasnt everyones cup of tea , but he did things properly , i read when he was the CEO at HP - it had the broadest income base of any race club - any code in Aust , thats impressive stuff , . And when they increased the HP track from about 710 to approx 800 - he said we are going to get the best person in the world to do this , he went to USA ,  and got i think Donald Coon a legendary track designer and he did a sensational job , the cambering was utterly fantastic . I can remember when Pride of Petite the champion NZ Trotter won on the new HP track , came from a mile back and destroyed a field - the new HP track allowed that horse to showcase its talents

    LightningJake likes this post.

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