Attention : NO BOOKMAKERS ON COURSE AT PINJARRA ON SUNDAY 2nd FEB.

therealkramer · February 2014

@ Bookielover- Perth accounts for more than half of my bets. It is a long day betting on syd/melb/bris and then only 3-4 races are run in WA before they shut the gates. Most of the time only two bookies ever offered odds on perth races back in those days, one of the Kafataris brothers and another who I can't recall.

bookielover · February 2014

I have heard that Garry Clarke who is a bookie off the rails in Sydney, has a daughter who is betting on Perth, but I'm not swearing as to the accuracy of that info.

therealkramer · February 2014

Bookielover-Getting set at Doomben back when I was last there was more it wasn't a matter of them not wanting the bets. Even with the machines printing tickets, the crowds were five-deep waving $5 & $10 notes. It was like watching tadpoles swarming over burley. Nothing worse than holding a fistful of 50s and not being able to get your bet on.

bookielover · February 2014

I reckon that crowds swarming to get on with bookies anywhere nowadays, would be your last problem mate. :))

bookielover · February 2014

So Diva, now that the dust has settled, have you or Jason heard from Pinjarra. Do you expect to have further meetings with them, and more importantly, if they refuse to budge, will you strike on Sunday 23rd. Feb.

TheDiva · February 2014

another meeting on Friday this week. Im told it will be sorted out by 23rd Feb.

therealkramer · February 2014

bookielover said:
I reckon that crowds swarming to get on with bookies anywhere nowadays, would be your last problem mate. :))

Yes but how long would it take to accept 100 x $5 bets? I was standing there trying to get set for $400-500

twiggy · February 2014

Hi Bookielover, I admire your passion but bookmakers have to accept that turnover tax (now effectively a product fee) has been and will always be part of the model.

Both race clubs and bookies have nobody else but themselves to blame for their shortsightedness in trying to protect their monopolies without embracing competition, technology and most importantly looking after their most important asset .. the customer/the punter. If you act like a dinosaur you will become extinct. It should not be incumbent on other industry participants to subsidise businesses that aren't sustainable.

When you write

And I fail to understand why you and other posters on here, continuously ignore the burden and impost of the iniquitous turnover tax.

How else do you believe that bookmakers should pay their way?

Also if you believe turnover tax is an iniquitous maybe you can take up the case for employers re Pay Roll Tax. This is a tax levied (approx 5.5%) without regard, on any employer whose payroll exceeds a legislated threshold. That is iniquitous!

bookielover · February 2014

You won't get an argument from me Twiggy, that T/O tax will always be part of a bookies expenses. But that doesn't detract from the fact that it is an iniquitous tax.

Every single bookie has to pay T/O tax no matter what they hold.

I'm sure that anyone can look up how much percentage payroll tax is paid and by whom in each state, and they will find that there are many exemptions for Companies, and there are many that do not pay any payroll tax at all. Bookies don't have that luxury.

That doesn't mean to say that payroll tax is a fair tax, but it certainly doesn't compare to a tax on a bookies turnover irrespective if he has won on the day or not.

I'm not saying that bookies should not pay their way, but in the Northern Territory, bookies pay .33% t/o tax compared with the other states where it ranges between 1 and 2 percent. that's a huge difference and that differential would mean a winning year over a losing one for most bookies if they only had to pay .33%.

My old man would have copped .33% every day of the week. It would have saved him around 7 million over his bookmaking career.

Rodent · February 2014

I worked for a bookie in Newcastle in the late 90's. He would hardly write a ticket over $10 but every so often someone would fly in and have 2k on something. The big bets rarely lost. The writing was clearly on the wall. The mug money was in very short supply and the smarties were in higher concentration than ever before. Most of the mug money had gone off course.

When I was a kid, entertainment options were very limited. Gambling options were limited to Lottery tickets, poker machines in registered clubs and the racing codes. Occasionally my parents would take me to Harold Park dogs or Wentworth park. I have vivid memories of at least 50 bookies at the dogs! The last time I went to Wenty there were 4 bookies.

I went to the races all the time until I could see the races at home. SKY channel and the internet killed on course attendance and of course there is more competition for the entertainment $ than ever before. We used to have to ring at least 4 tennis centres before we could find a court for hire and often missed out. Now they lay empty everywhere.

Time has moved on and racing has a huge challenge.

PuntingTragic · February 2014

Bookies rings have become boring to there is no atmosphere in them

Back in the 80s 90s the ring used to have a buzz at Ascot now it's dead

Bookies manners are apalling as well very rarely do u get a thank you or a well done champ or a good luck mate these days

Long faced bookies clerks whe rarely smile greet you with a grunt uc your lucky

They need to do something in the bookies ring out if the box to attract an hold people there for the day

Desperado · February 2014

PuntingTragic said:
Bookies rings have become boring to there is no atmosphere in them Back in the 80s 90s the ring used to have a buzz at Ascot now it's dead Bookies manners are apalling as well very rarely do u get a thank you or a well done champ or a good luck mate these days Long faced bookies clerks whe rarely smile greet you with a grunt uc your lucky They need to do something in the bookies ring out if the box to attract an hold people there for the day

Couldn't agree more PT.

TheDiva · February 2014

Rodent hit the nail on the head. With the "smarties" being banned and limited with all of the corporates, there are only a handful of places they can get on. The on course bookies (and a handful of decent online bookies) and the tote.

If this drives all the smart money to the on course bookie, how much longer do you think they can hang on without a fair balance of mug money?

Unfortunately the mug money has all gone to the corporates with their give aways, gimmicks and free bets.

Thumper · February 2014

bookielover said:
You won't get an argument from me Twiggy, that T/O tax will always be part of a bookies expenses. But that doesn't detract from the fact that it is an iniquitous tax.

Every single bookie has to pay T/O tax no matter what they hold.

I'm sure that anyone can look up how much percentage payroll tax is paid and by whom in each state, and they will find that there are many exemptions for Companies, and there are many that do not pay any payroll tax at all. Bookies don't have that luxury.

That doesn't mean to say that payroll tax is a fair tax, but it certainly doesn't compare to a tax on a bookies turnover irrespective if he has won on the day or not.

I'm not saying that bookies should not pay their way, but in the Northern Territory, bookies pay .33% t/o tax compared with the other states where it ranges between 1 and 2 percent. that's a huge difference and that differential would mean a winning year over a losing one for most bookies if they only had to pay .33%.

My old man would have copped .33% every day of the week. It would have saved him around 7 million over his bookmaking career.

Cleary NT can charge a lower turnover rate for oncourse bookmakers due to the fees they collect from the corporates.

If the other states embraced corporates like the NT do then perhaps they could also lower the turnover tax for oncourse bookmakers

runyon · February 2014

The Diva said:
Rodent hit the nail on the head. With the "smarties" being banned and limited with all of the corporates, there are only a handful of places they can get on. The on course bookies (and a handful of decent online bookies) and the tote.
If this drives all the smart money to the on course bookie, how much longer do you think they can hang on without a fair balance of mug money?

Unfortunately the mug money has all gone to the corporates with their give aways, gimmicks and free bets.

In the near future the Corporates will be offering their losing clients free gym memberships and their own personal dietician so they can keep them alive as long as possible and really bleed them dry.
:))

TheDiva · February 2014

By the way, Pinjarra race club have cancelled the meeting that was to happen this Friday.

Their reasoning was that: "due to the sales and business commitments, they dont have any committee persons able to attend the meeting".

Seems like they don't consider this a real issue for their club.

Carlosa · February 2014

What? Really? Have I read that right; no Committee person could attend the track so they have cancelled a meeting scheduled to run in 2 days?

SLIPPERGOLDEN · February 2014

They all have tickets to Bruce Springsteen for Friday

TheDiva · February 2014

sorry, the meeting (with the Wa Bookies Assoc) was scheduled for friday week, not this Friday.

Has been canceled because no committee member can attend.

apologies.

Darkhorse · February 2014

The Diva

By the way, Pinjarra race club have cancelled the meeting that was to happen this Friday.

When I saw them continue on with 1000 meter straight races, i thought they had NFI, this now confirms it.

Carlosa · February 2014

Oh sorry, different kind of meeting....I was preparing to explode

TheDiva · February 2014

yeah sorry Carlosa, the meeting that was scheduled to work out the stand fee issue.

Carlosa · February 2014

No worries, it's in my nature to fly off the handle without actually knowing what I'm getting worked up about, so no fault of yours...

Still, whether it be a race meeting or otherwise, once scheduled, just bloody get there, COmmitteemen!

velcrocandy · February 2014

RWWA have got a part to play here as well. According to the Pinjarra Race Club (PRC), a RWWA representative told the club that on course bookies no longer financially benefit the race club - this is totally incorrect. Apart from the $100 stand fee that each bookmaker pays directly to the club, the 1% Betting Levy that bookmakers pay on GROSS turnover goes directly back to the race club, after being collected by Dept of Racing & Gaming & then filtering through to RWWA, who onforward it to the club. Thus the PRC were of the opinion that on-course bookies provided no financial benefit to the club as when the money got to them, they did not know what it was for & where it came from.

Further to this, apart from the race club shooting itself in the foot from missing out on approx $2k in Betting Levy & stand fees from the Sunday meeting just gone, I guarantee turnover on the meeting via online bookmakers was significantly reduced. Fixed odds markets for each race (apart from IAS & Sportsbet where you can get on for peanuts so it is not a real market) went up 15 minutes before the start of each race. So for 20 minutes after the preceding race, on-course punters could not have a bet on fixed odds anywhere on course. There was no fixed odds price feed emanating from the track, so the corporates (including Centrebet, who provide the fixed odds markets for WA TAB) could not put a market up EXCEPT follow the only fixed odds market that existed, being IAS & Sportsbet.

Now RWWA receive 1% of gross turnover from all corporate bookmakers licensed in Australia, betting on Pinjarra that day. To give you some idea of how much they were missing out on, RWWA collected approx $114,000 in Product Fees from bookmakers around Australia, other than on oncourse bookmakers for the period 1 August 2013 to 13 January 2014, for betting on Pinjarra races alone. None of this levy goes back to the race club directly & turnover through the corporates continues to rise each year. On course bookmakers turnover has been shrinking & the levy they pay goes back to the race club, so the club do see a reduced financial benefit from on -course bookies each year - but that is not the fault of the on-course bookmaker.

Could someone pls tell me why turnover from off-course bookmakers does not go back to the race club, at least in part ?? RWWA (who own & run the TAB - the "brand that funds the industry") are also missing out on betting levy from reduced turnover from corporates who only bet 15 minutes prior to the running of each race, including TAB fixed odds themselves. So who is affected adversely here by the actions of the PRC & shortsightedness of RWWA ?????????????????????? The INDUSTRY................................................

On a positive note it was great to see TAB Fixed odds follow up the IAS & Sportsbet's markets because they no clue what they're doing, so for anyone who does the form there was juicy pickings once the TAB fixed odds markets went up..................but again does that help fund the industry ??????

TheDiva · February 2014

So RWWA achieves its goal by convincing Pinjarra raceclub that on course bookies don't contribute to their bottom line.

In so doing, pushing all of the fixed odds business towards either RWWA (fixed odds or tote) OR corporate bookies, where RWWA keep the entire product fee and pass NONE back to the race club.

They've hoodwinked the club and in the process have crushed one of their competitors! A cunning and brilliant plan!

=D>

TheDiva · February 2014

youknowit · February 2014

Diva is that rwwa staff?

therealkramer · February 2014

Bookielover, it's .33% + 1.5%(Race fields product fee) in NSW and a similar arrangement in VIC(don't know the exact %), although based on gross profit if I remember correctly. Betfair said it would send them broke,(Peter V'Landys called their business model faulty) but in the end they just passed the cost on. The corporates contested the NSW product fee on turnover in preference for the Vic model but ultimately lost and coughed up the cash.

youknowit · February 2014

Kramer betting levy in victoria is 1% of net hold up to 5 mill and 2% during spring carnival once your hold gets past 5 mill. start date is 1st of august each year. If your turnover stays under 5 mill you pay 1% on the nett hold.

AndrewCarter · February 2014

Velcro that's actually a bit inaccurate 365 had markets up for I think every race from at least11am onwards if not earlier for Pinjarra the other day, I know because I was keeping an eye on them out of interest to see what they would do without a lead from on course.

G'day Punter!

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