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restricted listed race.

West Australian Racing
careycarey    6,424 posts
edited February 2013 West Australian Racing
i noticed there is a 'restricted' listed race for mm 3yo's this week.
i can recall harvey and singleton getting their way on this nonsense.
breeders cheapening the product as is their want.
and arb bowing to their wishes probably because that is run by breeders too.
what's next, a 'restricted' listed race for horses bred by darley?
how about 'restricted' listed maiden mm.

oh and there is a 2yo one as well.
officialdom deluding themselves again.

+1 -1

Comments

  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    If the figure I thought I heard quoted by Dave from MM over here is correct then this is even more ridiculous... stated quite proudly that out of the 700+ yearlings listed last year at the sales that nearly 20 had already earned some money!!!!

    And for that they get a chance at a listed race victory?????? I see your point
    +1 -1
  • careycarey    6,424 posts
    they are listed races on cris, but that is wrong rio.
    they are officially....... RESTRICTED listed races, and if a race is not open to all, then it should not get any black type status of any kind.
    ridiculous.

    not to mention, if in future, winners of these race end up at stud, you can bet your last $, that when they detail winning races in their blurbs, the word 'restricted' will be missing, just as it is on cris.
    +1 -1
  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    maybe the defence would be that they haven't nominated it as an "open listed" race, so therefore the assumption is that it is a "restricted Listed" race....Only joking..sort of!!
    +1 -1
  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    RIO said:

    If the figure I thought I heard quoted by Dave from MM over here is correct then this is even more ridiculous... stated quite proudly that out of the 700+ yearlings listed last year at the sales that nearly 20 had already earned some money!!!!

    And for that they get a chance at a listed race victory?????? I see your point

    In his defence.........................How many 2yo races have there been so far this year ??? (certainly not 700)

    +1 -1
  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    carey said:

    they are listed races on cris, but that is wrong rio.
    they are officially....... RESTRICTED listed races, and if a race is not open to all, then it should not get any black type status of any kind.
    ridiculous.

    not to mention, if in future, winners of these race end up at stud, you can bet your last $, that when they detail winning races in their blurbs, the word 'restricted' will be missing, just as it is on cris.

    The Restricted classification is indeed identified in the pedigree

    +1 -1
  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    Certainly not, but if every 2yr old race averaged 9 runners and there has been 20 around the state, you'd expect that there has been 180 horses run and about 80 amounts of winning prize money paid..Still not a great return for the sale that provides the large majority of our 2yr olds. It appears as though the majority of the prize money winners have come from horses bred and bought outside the state, or ones that have been bred to run, by breeders..

    Cos I have time to waste at this moment I just checked metro only races and there has been 176 horses race in metro meets this year. There has only been a handful outside of metro most probably, but with ones in Perth , they pay prize money up to 5th place..so there has been 19 races x 5 chqs/race = 95 available cheques. Now it is only obvious that some of the MM horse have collected more than one chq, as it is obvious that some of the non MM horses have..

    And I don’t have time to break it down more, but I’d guess that the 20 MM horses that have gained prize money, don’t represent the majority of horses who have gained prize money. Whereas the sales are seen as the place to buy the majority of our horses...

    Just food for thought and discussion..Not having a go at MM, just an interesting point raised on radio that I hadn’t considered before. I felt that MM would have provided the majority of the 2yr old stakes winners based purely on numbers of yearlings presented at their sales. And I’m surprised to see that it doesn’t appear that way.
    +1 -1
  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    oh and forgot to add..and for being what appears a minority, they get a listed race...back to the initial point of the thread
    +1 -1
  • CarlosaCarlosa    1,287 posts
    So is that 176 individual 2yo horses, or 176 2yo race entries? ie - Are you accounting for horses that have had more then 1 start? I mean, of the 19 2yo races this season how many individual winners/placers have their been?

    Either way, I see your point, the MM race isn't neccessarily capturing the best.

    Although in saying that the field itself for the race this Saturday doesn't miss too many of the 2yo's that have shown something. Maybe a handful...
    +1 -1
  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    RIO said:

    Certainly not, but if every 2yr old race averaged 9 runners and there has been 20 around the state, you'd expect that there has been 180 horses run and about 80 amounts of winning prize money paid..Still not a great return for the sale that provides the large majority of our 2yr olds. It appears as though the majority of the prize money winners have come from horses bred and bought outside the state, or ones that have been bred to run, by breeders..

    Cos I have time to waste at this moment I just checked metro only races and there has been 176 horses race in metro meets this year. There has only been a handful outside of metro most probably, but with ones in Perth , they pay prize money up to 5th place..so there has been 19 races x 5 chqs/race = 95 available cheques. Now it is only obvious that some of the MM horse have collected more than one chq, as it is obvious that some of the non MM horses have..

    And I don’t have time to break it down more, but I’d guess that the 20 MM horses that have gained prize money, don’t represent the majority of horses who have gained prize money. Whereas the sales are seen as the place to buy the majority of our horses...

    Just food for thought and discussion..Not having a go at MM, just an interesting point raised on radio that I hadn’t considered before. I felt that MM would have provided the majority of the 2yr old stakes winners based purely on numbers of yearlings presented at their sales. And I’m surprised to see that it doesn’t appear that way.

    My bad - took it as WON a race, not just earned (any) money
    +1 -1
  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    the 176 is the total amount of 2yr old starts..ie, it isn't 176 individual horses,

    and i agree that the race on the weekend has got several very nice horses in it..but should all of them have a chance to win a listed race, due to where they were sold???

    If it gets recorded as restricted i suppose it is okay....just..IMO
    +1 -1
  • SPUDLEYSPUDLEY    1,584 posts
    JOKE JUST FEEL SORRY FOR THE POOR HORSES WHO WERE PUSHED JUST TO MEET SOME SORT OF CRITERIA THIS SHOWS THAT THE MM CONCEPT IS TOTALLY FLAWED THE ONLY WINNWR IN ALL THIS IS MM
    +1 -1
  • RodentRodent    7,457 posts
    carey said:

    i noticed there is a 'restricted' listed race for mm 3yo's this week.
    i can recall harvey and singleton getting their way on this nonsense.
    breeders cheapening the product as is their want.
    and arb bowing to their wishes probably because that is run by breeders too.
    what's next, a 'restricted' listed race for horses bred by darley?
    how about 'restricted' listed maiden mm.

    oh and there is a 2yo one as well.
    officialdom deluding themselves again.

    Totally agree on the farce that is (RL). If the ARB was going to bow to the pressure of MM it should have been for races over a certain $ amount. Clearly the January 2yo MM at the Gold Coast is always of sufficient quality to deserve black type.
    Carey, I'm not sure if it is still the case but the AJC Sires Produce Stakes G1 1400m used to only be open to progeny of Sires nominated. On the odd occasion there was a decent 2yo who would have to bypass the Sires due to ineligibility. I never saw (RG1) back in the day. I assume it was the same for the VRC Sires Produce as well. What are your thoughts on that as clearly those races weren't open to all comers either.
    +1 -1
  • davidhdavidh    16 posts
    Just a quick comment on the granting of Restricted Listed status for the MM 2 and 3yo races. This is only granted by the Pattern Committee after it has considered the races past performances ie how the graduates from those races have performed and as many of you know many of the winners have gone straight on to win other listed and group races the most recent being the winner of the 3yo MM backing up to win a listed race on Saturday. I most certainly did say that there were over 20 qualifiers for the 2yo and I think that was from 560 yearlings catalogued last year from which a good number were withdrawn and many were not payed up for the race series. In fact to be totally truthful the winner was purchased from the Gold Coast MM yearling sale so we could not claim it as a WA bred anyway. What will be interesting and hopefully justify the races elevation to RL status will be the performance of those that ran on MM day as they progress into the feature races in the near future. There are also a number of MM 2yos that although they had prize money elected to bypass the MM to aim at the Karrakatta etc. it will be nice if some WA bred can be successful in the forth coming races and ad more creditability to the WA breeding industry.
    +1 -1
  • davidhdavidh    16 posts
    MM 2yo Restricted Listed Placegetter now Listed Winner at his next start. Both Petrol Power and Express Service out of MM RL races are Listed winners.
    +1 -1
  • careycarey    6,424 posts

    so how does that justify, mm races listed status?
    if you use that criteria, then, every bloody race should have 'restricted' listed status basically.
    and you are assuming the listed races they won since, are also listed quality, but are they???

    on a further note, when the 54-64 for example, becomes 52-64, does the limit drop 1kg or does the top rating increase by that amount to 60kg?
    you can't fit in 6kg, when you only have a 5kg spread as there is presently.
    +1 -1
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